I will post more when I get back to Texas but here is some fast first thoughts.
*Frank Page as President: Dr. Page is our President and he deserves our prayers and support. One of my SBTC staff member friends told me that Dr. Page is a wonderful soul winner, pastor and will make a great Pres. I concur. I look forward to his work with Southern Baptists.
* The convention was much more unified than what folks thought. If we are divided, it is methodology vs. theology. It seems the most controversial issue to come out of Greensboro besides the IMB thing may be the 'drinking' issue.
* East Coast BBQ is AWFUL!!!! Where's the beef?
* Casting Crowns ROCKS!
* Cliff Barrows leading the convention in "How great thou art" = AWESOME!
* Memo to the SBC Leadership gang...stop lobbing grenades at the bloggers...you are just making yourself look bitter ad mad. Practice some grace! The bloggers are "good kids'
* That blue light special thing at the Lifeway booth drove me crazy!!!!
* The Guilford Courthouse battleground...very cool!
* Micah Fries looks like a young Al Franken
that's it for now...will start the drive home to Texas tomorrow..Later
Wednesday, June 14, 2006
Monday, June 12, 2006
Greensboro
Well it has been a few days since I last posted due to the fact that have been driving through half of America. What a wonderful and beautiful country we live in. Man, you folks in Tennessee are blessed! Some of the prettiest country I have ever seen! I was thrilled to learn yesterday the a supply preacher who filled in for me shared with my folks that he was glad and excited to be in the pulpit, he would be praying for our convention but he does not go because "I don't get into the political stuff like your pastor does" GREAT!!!! Thanks a lot friend! Anyway, I got to the conference in time to catch the last part of Johnny Hunt ad leave when the the "Tele - Preacher" came on. I think Rick Warren is a great guy but if I want to see him via video I will pay the $$$$$ to be a Purpose Driven Church : ) After that I had dinner at Carabas with a good look'en woman...Got heartburn, fell asleep and dreamed about falling off mountain roads. I hear it is a good thing I missed the first preacher or else I would have heart burn before I had dinner
After dinner Mrs Jack and I stopped a the local Walgreens and there we met "John" John is a crack addicted young man who was pan handeling outside the store. I asked him if he was on anything and he admited he was coming down from crack and was simply hungry. We bought him dinner and had prayer with him. He claimed he was a christian and I can only hope he is...by the looks of him unless God intervenes he had less than 3 months here on thi world. Please keep him in your prayers.
Today I enjoyed the breakout sessions with the denom "Brainiacks" I thought Dr. Patterson and Dr. Mohler did a great job! It was a lovefest and as it should be. I love Dr. P and he is and has been a blessing in my life but don't you know if it was a real debate that Mohler would have dismantled him, bad eyes and all! I thought both guys did a great job of destroying some straw men!
I got to meet Paul Burleson, great guy and we share a common deacon...and then my wife and I enjoyed Mark Dever and the Church Discipline conference. According to the Queen Bee, when we get back to Dodge, we will discipline the whole bunch and start all over again!
Let's just hope God doesn't have to the same thing with us in Greensboro!
Blessings and hope to see you this week
After dinner Mrs Jack and I stopped a the local Walgreens and there we met "John" John is a crack addicted young man who was pan handeling outside the store. I asked him if he was on anything and he admited he was coming down from crack and was simply hungry. We bought him dinner and had prayer with him. He claimed he was a christian and I can only hope he is...by the looks of him unless God intervenes he had less than 3 months here on thi world. Please keep him in your prayers.
Today I enjoyed the breakout sessions with the denom "Brainiacks" I thought Dr. Patterson and Dr. Mohler did a great job! It was a lovefest and as it should be. I love Dr. P and he is and has been a blessing in my life but don't you know if it was a real debate that Mohler would have dismantled him, bad eyes and all! I thought both guys did a great job of destroying some straw men!
I got to meet Paul Burleson, great guy and we share a common deacon...and then my wife and I enjoyed Mark Dever and the Church Discipline conference. According to the Queen Bee, when we get back to Dodge, we will discipline the whole bunch and start all over again!
Let's just hope God doesn't have to the same thing with us in Greensboro!
Blessings and hope to see you this week
Wednesday, June 07, 2006
Nice...Really nice!
Here is Ben Coles new post on his blog Baptist Blogger
This is an example of what I have been trying to say about character attacks and un Christlike innuendo. Sorry Ben...It is wrong and you ought to retract it!
This is an example of what I have been trying to say about character attacks and un Christlike innuendo. Sorry Ben...It is wrong and you ought to retract it!
Tuesday, June 06, 2006
This is Great Stuff!
Came across these very good comments today concerning unhealthy and unbiblical rhetoric. Thought you might check em out!
To Ben Cole on his blog, Baptist Blogger:
fishformen said...
Ben,
I have read the Memphis declaration and I agree with much of it. I certianly agree with the nepotism problems. I do however, want to make a statement. Before I do let me list my aquaintences and relationships so you don't have to do all the work. I am a graduate of SEBTS (1998); I served churches under the leadership of Dr Jim Cogdill and Bill Bowyer. In all my years as a SBC minister I have attended 2 conventions and I will not be in Greensboro because I will be in El Salvador doing evangelism.
My statement comes from Watchman Nee, whom those I have served under and educated under would probably dismiss as a heretic (certianly some conservatives have been opposed to his views).
Nee in his work "Spiritual Authority" talks of the relationship of King David and King Saul. Saul was the sitting King, already rejected by God but still sitting on the throne. David was the annointed king by God and yet had to wait 13 years to realize this in Israel. The point is David never publically spoke negatively, critically or in a fashion to demean Saul. David even repented of the fact that he took opportunity to humiliate Saul as he took part of his robe. I, for the Kingdom sake, ask you to refrain from the public retoric concerning Dr. Patterson. What is at stake is not his character or yours, but Christ's. Your publicizing of discontent, in my view, only serves Satan's agenda by confusing legitimnate issues with personal assaults. Our shame is that all can see your blog, including the lost. If indeed you feel Patterson is wrong, then pray for God to convict him or remove him of his leadership and influence. Ben, pursue kingdom endevours and let God get the glory for moving him on, not your reseach and retoric and digging of the dirt for his demise. I consider Nee's book a must read.
Chris Gilliam
Mike said...
What was Memphis anyway? I was thrilled and excited about God's activity but it is hard to see the results sometime. Why not write stuff that is edifying to Christ and builds up the body of Christ instead of what "appears" to be coming in the next few days. I am discouraged and concerned of both sides. We need more knee time with our computers and mouths shut and closed and our eyes, hearts, and spirits open to what God is saying. We need a revival in the deepest sense BEFORE anything else is done. I am ashamed to be SBC in the world today. I strongly urge you to be a unifier. You are capable it seems.
PiercedandHealed said...
It seems that you are saying that anyone ever associated with Paige Patterson should not be allowed to hold any office or position within the SBC comm.?? That will probably rule out the majority of the people.
The names are published and they are out for anyone to see and they are no secret, so things are not happening "under the radar". Conversely, I don't remember reading in the Bible that God would "gloriously announce to all His intentions so they may come up for voter approval before said intentions are put into practice".
The problem here is the magnification of the fundamental flaw in humanity... not getting our way. When we are not getting our way or when we do not have control over things we feel we should control we try to rally support to justify our feelings however misguided or wrong they may be. God never said he will talk about who is right and go from there... His Word tells us that we are to stop complaining, whining and moaning. We are to listen and FOLLOW and though we may not understand HIS WAYS we are to follow HIS WORD.
We tend to get caught up in the idea that it is all about us and the way we think things should progress. Yet, if we trace back history we will see that MAN messed it up in the first place and since then we have been doomed to repeat it... and doing a great job of it.
KJAnNWA said...
Somebody has way too much time on his hands!
Hey - that last one is true of all of us in Blogtown!
Blessings
JM
To Ben Cole on his blog, Baptist Blogger:
fishformen said...
Ben,
I have read the Memphis declaration and I agree with much of it. I certianly agree with the nepotism problems. I do however, want to make a statement. Before I do let me list my aquaintences and relationships so you don't have to do all the work. I am a graduate of SEBTS (1998); I served churches under the leadership of Dr Jim Cogdill and Bill Bowyer. In all my years as a SBC minister I have attended 2 conventions and I will not be in Greensboro because I will be in El Salvador doing evangelism.
My statement comes from Watchman Nee, whom those I have served under and educated under would probably dismiss as a heretic (certianly some conservatives have been opposed to his views).
Nee in his work "Spiritual Authority" talks of the relationship of King David and King Saul. Saul was the sitting King, already rejected by God but still sitting on the throne. David was the annointed king by God and yet had to wait 13 years to realize this in Israel. The point is David never publically spoke negatively, critically or in a fashion to demean Saul. David even repented of the fact that he took opportunity to humiliate Saul as he took part of his robe. I, for the Kingdom sake, ask you to refrain from the public retoric concerning Dr. Patterson. What is at stake is not his character or yours, but Christ's. Your publicizing of discontent, in my view, only serves Satan's agenda by confusing legitimnate issues with personal assaults. Our shame is that all can see your blog, including the lost. If indeed you feel Patterson is wrong, then pray for God to convict him or remove him of his leadership and influence. Ben, pursue kingdom endevours and let God get the glory for moving him on, not your reseach and retoric and digging of the dirt for his demise. I consider Nee's book a must read.
Chris Gilliam
Mike said...
What was Memphis anyway? I was thrilled and excited about God's activity but it is hard to see the results sometime. Why not write stuff that is edifying to Christ and builds up the body of Christ instead of what "appears" to be coming in the next few days. I am discouraged and concerned of both sides. We need more knee time with our computers and mouths shut and closed and our eyes, hearts, and spirits open to what God is saying. We need a revival in the deepest sense BEFORE anything else is done. I am ashamed to be SBC in the world today. I strongly urge you to be a unifier. You are capable it seems.
PiercedandHealed said...
It seems that you are saying that anyone ever associated with Paige Patterson should not be allowed to hold any office or position within the SBC comm.?? That will probably rule out the majority of the people.
The names are published and they are out for anyone to see and they are no secret, so things are not happening "under the radar". Conversely, I don't remember reading in the Bible that God would "gloriously announce to all His intentions so they may come up for voter approval before said intentions are put into practice".
The problem here is the magnification of the fundamental flaw in humanity... not getting our way. When we are not getting our way or when we do not have control over things we feel we should control we try to rally support to justify our feelings however misguided or wrong they may be. God never said he will talk about who is right and go from there... His Word tells us that we are to stop complaining, whining and moaning. We are to listen and FOLLOW and though we may not understand HIS WAYS we are to follow HIS WORD.
We tend to get caught up in the idea that it is all about us and the way we think things should progress. Yet, if we trace back history we will see that MAN messed it up in the first place and since then we have been doomed to repeat it... and doing a great job of it.
KJAnNWA said...
Somebody has way too much time on his hands!
Hey - that last one is true of all of us in Blogtown!
Blessings
JM
On Perceptions, Pandering and Politics
I will never forget it, circa early to mid 90's. Every year I would attend the Baptist General Convention of Texas and subject myself and our church messengers to the onslaught of moderate opposition to anything that remotely looked like the SBC. I recall the unkind words and the absolute anger that resonated from the moderate movers and shakers in Texas. One thing I was very aware of, these folks were mad! They were mad because their vision and idea of what the SBC should be had been 'taken' from them. The Power hungry, political, maniacal, uncaring, theological blood thirsty FUNDIES had 'stolen' the convention. IT WAS A TAKEOVER!!!! And to them the machine had its eyes on TEXAS! Their battle cry? "Not on our Watch!" "We will save BAYLOR from the Fundies!" How did they save Baylor? They stole it, but that's another story. So the moderates began their campaign to 'save' Texas from the 'evil empire'. What about this fundamentalist machine, which had its eyes on Texas? Some machine! The closest thing that it ever came to what could be called a takeover was garnishing about 42% of the presidential vote one year. We could not even get a clear word on abortion through the resolutions process. What machine? The machine was so great and strong that it finally shut down and started it's own convention, which is 1/2 the size of the very moderate BGCT.
There was no MACHINE
There was no attempt at takeover
There was no back room leadership
What there was however was Baptist who had a differing view on how a denomination or better yet a convention ought to represent the churches in its membership. In the case of Texas, the moderates won...fair enough...Baptist vote, somebody prevails, somebody does not. That's the way it is. In our National convention that's the way it is also. There is a political process in all of this because that is the polity to which we hold. We are a body politic. Our politics are based upon our theology, or ideology and our methodology. This is not anything new folks. Baptist have always been a people of schism. Fortunately in Texas we recognize this in the Southern Baptist of Texas Convention and we do require theological accountability in order to be a cooperating church. This works well for us on the theological level. It insures that our battles will be family affairs and will not fall under the auspice of doctrinal infidelity.
There are those who see some kind of a draconian, dark, behind the scenes machine that exists in the current SBC. It sounds a lot like the conspiracy theories about the area 51 cover up, The 'illuminati', 'Big Brother' watching. No one can be in charge except the 'dark masters' say so. It really would be quite humorous except in the entire fray people get maligned and hurt. (And I do realize it cuts both ways) The truth of the matter is the current SBC leadership is more like the town of Stanton, Texas than it is the former Moscow, Russia. On the outside of the Stanton city limits some time back there was a sign that read "WELCOME TO STANTON, HOME OF THE FINEST FOLKS IN THE WORLD... AND JUST A FEW SORE HEADS!" In Southern Baptist leadership I will assure you we have some of the finest folks around...and probably a few soreheads also! Are there people in the SBC enamored with their position? Probably. Could there be folks who say and do unkind things? I would imagine. Are there those who use their positions for personal privilege? It is certainly possible. But the truth is that most if not the very greatest part of the trustees, agency heads, leaders, movers and shakers in the SBC are folks who are just like us. They are Pastors, Missionaries, professors, teachers, deacons, mothers and fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers who love the Lord and love the SBC. There greatest concern is not the convention itself but their local church and what is going on there. They have been appointed by people who know them and respect them (And may even be related to them...GASP!!!!!!) who believe they will do a good job representing the best interest of the convention. We as Baptist trust them to do so. Almost always they do a grand job
If they betray our trust we have a system to deal with it through the convention.
If we disagree with them from time to time (and we will ) we have the right to say so. And if there needs to be change, we see to it that it happens (Can you say 1979?)
But to demonize, malign, and call into question ones integrity based upon who is appointed and who is not based upon a body politic, all the while you have the privilege to take part in the same process...well that is wrong, and most Baptist know it! It also betrays the very strong convictions that the majority of Baptist hold to as demonstrated by recent votes. To say that the "machine' dictates and runs things is to say that Baptist people cannot think for their selves and regulate their own convention. Again, can you say 1979?
We have a great convention...We will have a grand time in Greensboro as we meet to fellowship, sing, preach, witness and serve together. Yes, we will have a business meeting or two also...There are three fine men who will contend for the office of President. Baptist will vote, Baptist will win and Baptist will lose. Then we will all go back home to the local church where life happens. My prayer is that what we say and how we say it in Greensboro will not make our jobs even more difficult once we get home.
I just wish we would practice the same thing on some of our blogs!
There was no MACHINE
There was no attempt at takeover
There was no back room leadership
What there was however was Baptist who had a differing view on how a denomination or better yet a convention ought to represent the churches in its membership. In the case of Texas, the moderates won...fair enough...Baptist vote, somebody prevails, somebody does not. That's the way it is. In our National convention that's the way it is also. There is a political process in all of this because that is the polity to which we hold. We are a body politic. Our politics are based upon our theology, or ideology and our methodology. This is not anything new folks. Baptist have always been a people of schism. Fortunately in Texas we recognize this in the Southern Baptist of Texas Convention and we do require theological accountability in order to be a cooperating church. This works well for us on the theological level. It insures that our battles will be family affairs and will not fall under the auspice of doctrinal infidelity.
There are those who see some kind of a draconian, dark, behind the scenes machine that exists in the current SBC. It sounds a lot like the conspiracy theories about the area 51 cover up, The 'illuminati', 'Big Brother' watching. No one can be in charge except the 'dark masters' say so. It really would be quite humorous except in the entire fray people get maligned and hurt. (And I do realize it cuts both ways) The truth of the matter is the current SBC leadership is more like the town of Stanton, Texas than it is the former Moscow, Russia. On the outside of the Stanton city limits some time back there was a sign that read "WELCOME TO STANTON, HOME OF THE FINEST FOLKS IN THE WORLD... AND JUST A FEW SORE HEADS!" In Southern Baptist leadership I will assure you we have some of the finest folks around...and probably a few soreheads also! Are there people in the SBC enamored with their position? Probably. Could there be folks who say and do unkind things? I would imagine. Are there those who use their positions for personal privilege? It is certainly possible. But the truth is that most if not the very greatest part of the trustees, agency heads, leaders, movers and shakers in the SBC are folks who are just like us. They are Pastors, Missionaries, professors, teachers, deacons, mothers and fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers who love the Lord and love the SBC. There greatest concern is not the convention itself but their local church and what is going on there. They have been appointed by people who know them and respect them (And may even be related to them...GASP!!!!!!) who believe they will do a good job representing the best interest of the convention. We as Baptist trust them to do so. Almost always they do a grand job
If they betray our trust we have a system to deal with it through the convention.
If we disagree with them from time to time (and we will ) we have the right to say so. And if there needs to be change, we see to it that it happens (Can you say 1979?)
But to demonize, malign, and call into question ones integrity based upon who is appointed and who is not based upon a body politic, all the while you have the privilege to take part in the same process...well that is wrong, and most Baptist know it! It also betrays the very strong convictions that the majority of Baptist hold to as demonstrated by recent votes. To say that the "machine' dictates and runs things is to say that Baptist people cannot think for their selves and regulate their own convention. Again, can you say 1979?
We have a great convention...We will have a grand time in Greensboro as we meet to fellowship, sing, preach, witness and serve together. Yes, we will have a business meeting or two also...There are three fine men who will contend for the office of President. Baptist will vote, Baptist will win and Baptist will lose. Then we will all go back home to the local church where life happens. My prayer is that what we say and how we say it in Greensboro will not make our jobs even more difficult once we get home.
I just wish we would practice the same thing on some of our blogs!
Monday, June 05, 2006
The times they are a chang'en
Looks like many in Blogtown are starting to realize that the rhetoric by some exceeds their idea of 'principled dissent', Good for them!!!
Here is a telling post on Wes Kenny's site that deals with the inconsistency of the Memphis Declaration in light of the rhetoric coming from some who have signed it. I like Wes's posts and I hope to meet him in Greensboro.
Here is a telling post on Wes Kenny's site that deals with the inconsistency of the Memphis Declaration in light of the rhetoric coming from some who have signed it. I like Wes's posts and I hope to meet him in Greensboro.
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